You must log in or register to comment.
The battle lines are being drawn in the court of public opinion. Now the question becomes how steadfast is the public support behind demanding a peaceful yet forceful resolution to this conflict and finally ending this apartheid regime.
Public perception outside Israel has affected a total of 0 policy decisions in the country
I just want my country to stop knob slobbing these fucking fascists.
Because they keep getting money from the US. The US tap has to be turned off.
Um, actually… it currently IS turned off until the house gets it’s act together. Of course, the sink is filled to the brim with soap and plates, so it will be a while before the water runs out - but it will make the genocidal plate scrubbing of Gaza a bit harder without the tap turned on.
Israel is too important for the USA’s goals and stature in the area for public perception is the US to change the flow of money.
And in practise, Israel is not getting money but weapons systems, which is quite lucrative for the US
How successful the court of public opinion has been in influencing the outcome of Israel conflict before?
Very. Israel has been on several benders that were curtailed due to international opinion. Unfortunately it’s never outrightly solved the issue.
It was successful against South African Apartheid. There’s a reason conservatives are trying to literally outlaw the BDS Israel movement. (Boycott, Divest, Sanction)
Pretty effective. It’s backlash to Israel that has stopped Netanyahu from wiping palestine off the map.
Israel is a small country that relies on the implicit assumption that Western countries will defend it if a large invasion ever comes to be. If they didn’t need some considerable international support, they would have ethnically cleansed the whole of Palestine already.
Imagine how angry and disappointed our ancestors would be knowing that the supposed chosen children of God literally got given their land after WW2, gave them sympathy, gave them diamonds and global support to promote love, peace and prosperity, then watched them literally turn and slaughter their brothers and sisters next door, make millions selling spyware tools and then carpet bomb hospitals because anyone can be a terrorist. Meanwhile Sweden has had literal gunmen attack youth campus.
Now imagine that you’re actually a hardcore supporter of a Jewish homeland, or Zionism so to speak, and then imagine that this is the hell your government has created and nobody in power could be bothered building a road or a school but depends on a million dollar empire in a faraway land to provide them billions of dollars of weaponry, guns, tanks etc while they claim the country is under 24-7 threat. When you really think about it it’s almost like if it was imaginary or true it wouldn’t matter, because dogma and paranoia overrides any sense of logic with these people, meanwhile they’re literally unironically spreading their little paranoia and fear by knowingly selling spyware to dictatorships to target “dissidents”
You could have been born yesterday, or be a hundred years old, and you would still have known where energy and LOVE has been squandered
the supposed chosen children of God literally got given their land after WW2, gave them sympathy, gave them diamonds and global support to promote love, peace and prosperity, then watched them literally turn and slaughter their brothers and sisters next door
Ignoring the borderline antisemitism there, in reality the people of the region were essentially abandoned by the West to fight it out. The Arab League didn’t like the results of the UN vote, and so riots broke out and the violence escalated into a war in which the Zionists were victorious against 7 Arab nations. To be clear, I’m not saying it was moral or ethical for the Zionists to settle land that was already inhabited by Arabs in the first place (it wasn’t), but that ship had long since sailed by 1948. My point is there was a very serious war over the land and no one was “given” anything. After the war, the Western powers agreed to enforce the 1949 armistice borders, and began supporting Israel materially because they were seen as a counterpoint to Soviet-Arab relations.
It follows that the point of support for Israel has never been “love, peace and prosperity”, but a geopolitical calculation, and one that has been wildly successful in maintaining Western hegemony in a region of the world that has never been particularly receptive to Western liberalism. Because of its geopolitical positioning, Israel is under constant threat, as evidenced by the Six Day War, two Intifadas, the bus & cafe bombings of the 90s & 00s, and the frequent rocket attacks of more recent times. Yes, they are under attack because they are unwelcome in the region due to their history of violence against native Arabs, but that doesn’t make the fear of Israelis irrational or paranoid - just hypocritical. It doesn’t justify the violence, but it does perpetuate it.
And so the clearest route to peace was through the normalization of relations between Israel and its Arab/Islamic neighbors, leading to a gradual detente and eventually a regional consensus. This latest flare-up of the conflict is a major setback in that effort, though, and speculatively, that aspect of it may be intentional on the part of Iran, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc.
And if support for Israel stops Palestine and countries like Iran will kill everyone they can in Israel and the country will be replaced by another extremist country lead by terrorists.
Peaceful yet forceful?
They probably mean forceful as in strong, not nonviolent. Like the world needs to band up and tell Israel to cut their shit out like they did to South Africa.
^ Yes, this is exactly what I meant. Thank you.
And I remember that Mandela died until one day I flicked on the telly and found out apparently not
I can’t remember what happened in South Africa. I was young and doing a lot of drugs then. Is it possible for this to end similarly?
I mean probably yes. What ended the Apartheid was immense pressure from the international community up to and including sanctions. That’s what the BSD movement aims to do, but it doesn’t have much steam right now.
What people seem to forget is that the international sanctions started AFTER violent actions are done by anti apartheid activists in South Africa. Such violent actions happened after what? Ding ding ding, the non violent protesting which ends in the deaths of the protesters. Fun fact, did you know Nelson Mandela is designated as a terrorist until 2008? And he got elected as South Africa president in 1994. There’s 14 years after he got democratically elected as a president that he’s still designated as a terrorist.
I condemn what Hamas did on October 7th, even if you read about Islam, there are actually rules of engagement in Islamic teachings. But after what happened during Great March of Return which is a peaceful protest done by Palestinians that resulted in IDF snipers killing peaceful Palestinians. What the fuck do you expect is going to happen after decades of occupation and humiliation? Do you want Palestinians to be a perfect victim? To just roll over and die? Just to let the apartheid state murder them and reduce their population to be so small that you feel bad about them because they can do nothing? Like what the US or Canada did to their indigenous population?
Look, if something like this happened to you, what are you going to do? Just roll over and let some dude from Brooklyn take your home?
My family’s home country is a country that got colonized by a lot of European countries, the Portuguese, the Spaniards, the Brits, even the Japanese got their turn colonizing my home country. And did you know what happened after we proclaimed our independence? Our colonizers came back and invaded us saying what we did is “illegal” and forced us to a bloody war of 4 years that cost more than 100,000 lives. If that kind of thing happened today, I bet you a billion dollars that the people who fought for their independence will be labeled as a terrorist.
Thanks.
Here’s a really great refresher on that exact topic from @Tony that I thought was really good if you’re interested.
Ah, I see. Thanks.
Israel is not an apartheid regime. That is silly.
Israel has full political and military control of Palestinian land. They control every aspect of their lives. Remember when Jewish people where placed into ghettos and they each had different insignia that would indicate where they were from and were they could travel and what freedoms they had? Israel does the same thing with palestinians.
Palestinians asking for a homeland. They are at home and have been invaded for over 70 years
I’m from Bristol. Haven’t seen a single Israeli flag or show of support for Israel in this conflict, but I have seen loads of Palestinian flags waved around, and even witnessed a march last week.
I think public opinion has drastically changed in favour of Palestine.
Israel has the support of powerful governments the world over, it doesn’t need the support of a hundred thousand marchers. This is why they get away with what they’ve done for decades.
Same as for South Africa, basically. Segregation started in 1908. Formal apartheid in 1948. Full on boycotts with government support late 1980’s, and 1990 the regime fell.
I’d say we’re looking at a generalized propaganda failure here all across Europe and most of the world - ten years ago you were banned off any sizable English-language forum for calling Israel genocidal… that’s simply not the case any longer.
People have better access to information now.
I’d say that’s a big factor to it, yes. And it’s not just in regards to Israel - the people at the top had the information tap perfectly in hand until the internet came around to spoil all that. That’s why you see so many attempts to clamp down on the internet - everything from AI surveillance to Phony Stark taking a $44 billion hit to “fix” sites like Twitter.
Yet here they are, pretending Israel is genocidal
I think a large part of the issue is that the settlements themselves are actually a reflection of Israel failing to develop vertically. Even without picking a side, even if we ignore the ridiculous hypocrisy of Israel for selling literal spyware tools like Pegasus for the Saudis and other dictators to use on their own citizens and commit murder, the reality is that Israel’s current problem with terrorism is entirely of their own making, because they’ve funded settlements and wasted time and money when they’ve had more than 20 years since the Nakba, Fatah and had millions of dollars of US funding and done fuck all. Mate, you could be a hardcore Zionist and supporter of the state of Israel, and still think that they’ve done a shit job.
Good, pity the people’s views are seldom represented in government
Bristol has a very left wing lean, I’ve seen the graffiti around. It’s a vocal minority. Public opinion is mainly indifference but condemnation of both sides, maybe a bit on Israel’s side right now. The way Hamas has conducted themselves I would argue has seriously damaged the perception of the Palestinian cause.
Fact that it’s even that close when there’s a lot of Western bias towards Israel and with how Muslims are often painted as terrorists by the media is a testament to how badly Israel fucked up.
Also that was before the videos of kids being murdered and traumatized started streaming in. Although MSM buries these because the UK is pretty much an Israeli proxy now.
Genuine question: How many, in term of proportion, if you can estimate, of the protesters are non-Muslim, or simply say white people/Chinese etc? I am saying this because they’re a lot of Muslims living near cities, especially London, Manchester and Birmingham. Having many muslims protesting for the Palestinians is no brainer, as they share the same values. It’s much more impactful if the protesters are consisted of many different religious demographics.
Nice job Londoners.
Looked to be a lot more than 100k to me
British media likes to undersell any and all protests, they typically take their photos at the end when there’s a much lower number of people and then knock at least half off the number of people who attended. Oh and if one person brings a joke flag/banner then you better believe pictures of that from different angles will be all over the place rather than any pictures of actual protestors.
BBC is state run, of course they’re going to slant things in favor of the establishment
300,000 apparently
Hardly surprised, the tube outlet right under parliament had pro palestinian posters last I was there
This is the best summary I could come up with:
The shipment of 20 trucks bringing medical supplies offered limited relief to Gaza’s 2.3 million population, under fire and with barely anything to eat or drink.
The home secretary, Suella Braverman, has previously labelled the slogan antisemitic and claimed that it is “widely understood” to call for the destruction of Israel.
A small group of protesters held a separate demonstration in central London on Saturday in which a large banner read, “Muslim armies, rescue the people of Palestine.”
The Met said it was deploying 1,000 officers to police the demonstration, as well as mounting extra patrols around synagogues and places of worship following a 1,350% increase in hate crimes against Jewish people and a 140% rise in Islamophobic incidents.
The Met said there had been “pockets of disorder and some instances of hate speech” in the series of vigils, protests and public gatherings, but that most had “been lawful and taken place without incident”.
In Australia, thousands marched through central Sydney after police gave the event the green light, and rallies were also held in Perth, Hobart and Brisbane.
The original article contains 666 words, the summary contains 179 words. Saved 73%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Serious question: would this be historically considered Casus Belli for Israel to declare war against the UK?
Fuck Israel.
Well, the Israeli government, anyway.
I mean, how is the democracy in Israel?
I hear the media is somewhat free there
Israelis should’ve taken some action the past years
Aka “I don’t care who vowed to do terrorism, fuck those who dare to respond to it”
Which side are you referring to?
Terrorism is being done by hamas.
Among others.
Yeah. When you attack buildings that fire rockets at you, this is not terrorism.
What is the point of these protests?
The most charitable view:
To show western governments that the population doesn’t just blindly side with the Israeli government. A major difference between the two sides who are committing heinous acts, is that one side is a government committing genocide, and the other is a military organization (not the government) which was made in response to being forcibly expelled from their land by that government.
Neither side should be killing innocent civilians, but we should not be collectively taking Israel’s side, like is traditionally done.The least charitable view:
Because people want to get away with yelling Nazi-shit in public.To say that Israelis aren’t the only people needing protection.
Mostly to vent out anti-Semitic frustration in a way that is politically viable
Don’t confuse criticism of the Israeli government with anti-semitism. Otherwise you’re just saying “Israel can do no wrong, even if they’re doing war crimes.”
Maybe if terrorists didn’t hide behind human shields, Israel would’ve been accused of far less war crimes. Grabbing a toddler after setting off a bomb and murdering a crowd is basically Hamas’ strategy.
Maybe if Israel hadn’t been doing everything they could to drive Palestinians from their land for decades they wouldn’t have helped grow these terrorist groups that are lashing out at them.
All I see from you is pro terrorist bullshit. Fuck Hamas and I hope Israel kills every Hamas sack of shit out there. Hamas at this point could do the right thing and surrender, and spare the civilians, but they’re too cowardly to do that.
All you see from me is Anti Israeli Government bullshit. When the Israeli government spends decades committing crimes against humanity the end result is not a surprise. When no one listens to the suffering of Palestinians what options are they left with?
I call bullshit, on several fronts with what you said. Decades of crimes against humanity is unsubstantiated. What you call crimes against humanity is likely debatable at best and an outright lie at the worst. Hamas is a terrorist organization, and I agree with the sentiment that “Palestinians” are an invention from the last century. You have people who moved to the area under the Ottoman Empire, and the world decided back in 1947 that Israel shall again be a nation. When you have the despicable acts of the PLO and extremist organizations spring up from what appeared to be peaceful coexistence, this narrative about the light of Palestinians and the “freedom fighters” who cut infants’ heads off can go pound sand.
I don’t want the innocents harmed either, but I do believe Hamas must be exterminated. If that means flattening a building that they’re hiding in and using human shields, so be it. The people who support Hamas are making their bed, and we should not be surprised by the humanitarian crisis going on when the cowardly Hamas militants hide behind innocent families.
Exterminate Hamas, that’s my take on it. Don’t like it? Too fucking bad, it’s going to happen anyway and you can wring your lying hands all you want.
Well if that isn’t the most outlandish illogical leap I’ve seen in a while…
In London, some of the protesters chanted, “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”, despite a controversy around the slogan’s meaning.
From the article.
Nothing antisemitic about that. Wouldn’t matter what race, religion, ethnicity the apartheid occupiers were.
to be fair, if you wave an LGBTQ flag at any protest on TERF island and you’ll probably get harrassed
Seems like they’re trying to shoehorn their cause into another.
Since many of us left Reddit without any desire to give them traffic, could you please put a warning with your link?
Tbh I feel like this is a silly request.
No worries, I’ll just skip any links you post. Thanks.
Just add Reddit to any blocklists you use.
I think the fact that it starts with https://www.reddit.com is probably enough of a warning.
They inserted the link into text. By client doesn’t display the full address ever, but for reddit links it seems to just say (/comments/). I’m assuming this is a legacy of being a reddit app (Sync). I’m pretty sure Lemmy links show the exact same thing.
You are assuming a desktop browser and a mouse. Lots of us browse from a phone app.
I am using Eternity
ublock origin with Firefox? Pihole?
LOL that any brit has the guts to be out there protesting when literally they are one of the founding pillars of the conflict would be funny if it wasn’t so fucked.
LOL that any brit has the guts to be out there protesting when literally they are one of the founding pillars of the conflict
Wait, are you saying that people should never protest against something their country is doing/was involved in?
Yes.
Well that’s dumb. How’s a country going to correct its behaviour if it’s citizens can’t voice they want to change?
South Africa, for example, would still be an apartheid state.
Yes.
Wait, you’re pro-apartheid?
What? You totally inverted the comment with which I was agreeing.
You too have the ability to change your answer instead of leaving it to be pro-apartheid.
Care to elaborate?
Livus is referencing the Balfour Agreement .
Please go back to reddit
Hey now, he’s got some education in the matter, let’s not punch down on someone whose got an educated opinion here
Dude, your comments are useleas, stfu plz
no
You’re not my real dad.
You cannot blame the normal civilians for these particular actions. I don’t even think, some of them were even born yet.
The British clusterfuck here dates back to the first world war. No one remotely involved is alive now.
…and, we exited the area well before Israel achieved statehood.
“Well before” Israel unilaterally declared independence thr day we left.
And there’s definitely no way to learn your country’s history. The UK who has even more crimes against humanity and war crimes under its belt than even the US. And the US NUKED civilian population intentionally. Even with that the UK should shut the fuck up about this specific issue.
But then again, most people weighing in on the conflict don’t know any of its history.
They don’t know that 2 state was about to happen when Arafat walked away.
They don’t know how Israel pulled completely out of the west Bank and Gaza, and in exchange for autonomy, their armed security forces used their weapons to attack Israelis.
They don’t know even the basic modern history of the region like the Yom Kippur war. Could you imagine what the response would be if Israel attacked Mecca during Ramadan? LOL, bc that’s what the Arab countries did.
They don’t know there were at one point Palestian Jews…
The list of ignorant shir and misinformation being slung around here is insane.
There are NO good guys and bad guys in this conflict. It is just an endless parade of war crimes by everyone involved.
I readily condemn Israel’s long history of crimes (including many and current war crimes against the civilians in Gaza). Because I know Israel has blood on its hands.
But these Anti-Israel or Pro-terrorism nutters (your choice) can not even acknowledge the horrible war crimes and terrorist acts that triggered this latest escalation. Instead, they make empty excuses and whatabout away the most horrific intentional attack on civilians that we’ve seen in a long time. It’s tribalism rather than care about right and wrong. There’s a reason the Aussies were shouting “Gas the Jews” at their rally.
I’ll happily soak up all the downvotes in the world, calling bullshit on the armchair experts with five minutes of research from a propaganda site with an agenda–any day. Meanwhile, these uninformed or intellectually disingenuous shills, or their closest bedfellows the racist anti-semites make excuses for the horrible laundry list of crimes committed by the elected representatives of Gaza.
All the while, even if the pro-terrorists aren’t anti-semites they are happily in bed and cheering side by side with them over a common cause. And the comfort with which they do is beyond disturbing.
They don’t know there were at one point Palestian Jews…
Pretty sure the Romans named it Palestine to be dicks to Jews lol
You don’t sound very happy
I don’t think there are many people that are seriously pro hamas, just benign or neutral, in respect to the fact that one side which has a large collection of groups working together, the Israeli defense force and US government etc, etc yet has kind of made some blunders and has not played their cards very well.
Even for the USA, after 9-11 and Iraq, when they moved ahead with invading Afghanistan, there was still an attempt to spend some time with negotiation and “state building” despite being seen across the world as barbarian invaders. See, the gift of being ignorant but having a lot of guns is that you don’t have as much weight on your shoulders if you screw up, the biggest project could be a highway, but for Israel, they’ve had a lot of international support and has had more than 50 yrs to resolve the Palestine question, I think it’s quite fair to say by now that they’re kind of bulldozing just to act like they have easy answers because they have an urban growth problem now more than an actual terrorism problem.
Ironically the fact that they now have a terrorism problem is more a symptom of government incompetence than terrorists actually actively seeking to destroy the state of Israel
To be blunt, even a Zionist here would understand that it’s not about being for or against the state of Israel having a right to exist, it’s about the issue of the IDF failing to resolve real issues with terrorists while essentially turning a blind eye to repeated problematic behaviours.
I get your points and don’t disagree fully. But they have had a terrorism problem for a long, long time. If Hamas had not been blowing up civilians on busses, then Perez would have been elected, and chances of a 2 state solution would have been high (it was so close). Then, had Perez been elected, it is less likely Arafat would have walked away from the talks–which he did (effectively ending a possibility of 2 state from the Oslo accords).
But Hamas did successfully put Netanyahu (a horrific war criminal) into power (remember he was losing until the Hamas suicide and bus bombings and because of that he won by what like 1 percent). Thus, Hamas successfully prevented 2 state, which they then used to rise to power and become the elected representatives of Gaza.
A two state solution would have been even more likely had that Israeli orthodox piece of shit not assassinated Rabin. The reality is the greatest enemy to peace has been rhe religious nut jobs on BOTH sides. But even then, I still think Pereze would have managed it while working with Arafat.
By not cracking down on Hamas, Arafat enabled their rise to power and successfully gave them enough coverage to sink 2 state by getting Netanyahu elected. And their partnership (Hamas and Netanyahu) have made this whole fucking mess even worse ever since.
History matters on this stuff. Especially when people are protesting in support of terrorists without any historical context or understanding of the propaganda they’ve fallen victim to.
Warmongers unintentionally keep each other employed, what a suprise, truly a potential future case of systems producing human displacement as a means of sustaining other systems
